‘We have never seen this in the theatre before!’ YFH talks to Collective Artistes about new play Zhe

Earlier this month we told you about Zhe, the brand new play from BAME-led theatre company Collective Artists. An original piece about the place where African and Western cultures, gender and sexuality collide, it has us very excited!

Ahead of Zhe‘s preview tour which kicks off at the Canada Water Cultural Space tonight, YFH caught up with Victoria Shaskan from Collective Artists and actor Tonderai Munyevu to talk gender neutral pronouns, Wole Soyinka and the importance of being truthful when it comes to modern theatre.

What Does Zhe Mean?

T: Zhe (pronounced zee) is a gender neutral pronoun. An invented term that transgender people or people who don’t want to be gender specific can use rather than he or she.

It’s also a play on XX and XY too; a beginning of our exploration of what gender is, of masculinity and femininity and what our roles (as defined by our genders) are in society.

Zhe would have been a really helpful term for Antonia (Kemi Coker, Munyevu’s Zhe co-star) and I back in the days when people viewed us as androgynous. It would have solved the problem of us reconciling who we were with what the world perceived us to be.

Undefined appears as almost a subheading on the flyer. Would people be wrong to take that as a definition for the term Zhe, then?

T: People who are trans are defined, they know who they are.

For the purposes of the play ‘undefined’ refers to the fact that we as human beings are undefined. Everybody has the thing which is their zhe, their undefined charisma or quality or potential. Hopefully the play will encourage the audience to explore their own stories.

Zhe is based on your real lives – tell us more about that. What inspired you to create it and how it has come together?

T: When we met two years ago I looked like a girl and was mistaken for a girl by Antonia. It transpired she’d suffered the same thing and had always wanted to explore her personal story – of life as an androgynous person, as someone who grew up without her parents and in care, someone living life at the intersection of culture and gender. We got a dialogue going. Our meeting acted as a catalyst for Zhe.

My story is about coming to this country from Zimbabwe, as a very very androgynous person and from a family where my androgyny was celebrated, into a very different culture and coming to terms with that culture. The play isn’t about homosexuality or androgyny though, really, but about how these things are part of something bigger. It’s a play about growing up, making huge mistakes, but at the end of the day finding something which propels you to be a successful adult. To make this play, to be brave, to get up on stage and tell this story and hopefully to help people.

That’s a very interesting point you make, about coming to the West from Zimbabwe and finding that it wasn’t as welcoming of your androgyny as you thought it would be. I think the overarching perception is of the West as an open arena, promoting the rights and agenda of the individual, certainly one which is embracing of differences.

T: I think that is such a misconception. And we deal with that in this play. Certainly in my element of the story.

Here there is a public platform in which one can have a gay life, but there is not a complex understanding of androgyny. In other countries where there is a more complex understanding of androgyny there isn’t a platform for living a gay life.

Why do you think this play is important now?

T: We’ve been working on it for two years. Since Antonia and I met it has been a part of our relationship, and it’s taken this long because of the logistics of schedules and producing and just how the story has developed.

In terms of why it is an important play now (socially) . . . Africa is going through a very difficult time right now in terms of gay rights. It’s not why we started creating the play, but as we researched the story we found such shocking information about gay life in Africa. Antonia, Chuck Mike (Collective Artistes’ founder and artistic director) and I experienced it first hand when we travelled to Zimbabwe in the development stages. I don’t want it to be a piece about gay life in Zimbabwe, but we do pay heed to what we saw in Africa as part of our exploration of gender and the intersection of our Western and our African cultures.

Ultimately, it’s a story about growing up, what helps you get through and I think that is always relevant.

Have you worked with Collective Artistes before and, if so, on what?

T: I auditioned for The African Company Presents Richard III, and I didn’t get in to the company. Which at the time I ‘was very glad about.’ You have to protect yourself (your pride) as an actor. *smiles* I’m glad I came back.

V: Antonia has pretty much been working with the company since it came to the UK, so at least 15 years. Starting with Things Fall Apart (1997).

What’s it like working within a company like Collective Artistes – that is BAME-led and focuses on stories from a BAME perspective? How does this relate to other experiences you’ve had in the theatre?

T: I think the most important thing I’ve found working with companies like Collective Artistes is the idea that you can bring skills that are native to you as an African performer. African performances don’t necessarily differentiate between music (singing), moving (dancing), and speaking (dialogue). It’s a fluid thing in African performance.

Whereas (training for and performing) in classical British theatre you often have to work with one element. As an African performer I might think why can’t I just sing this line or dance over there and the director will say ‘It’s not a musical.’ *smiles*

It’s very rare as actors to encounter that (freedom), unless you have your own theatre company . . . or are lucky enough to work with CA all the time. Which I’m not . . .

How has your training influenced your work, both with Collective Artistes and other companies?

T: I trained in England at the London Centre for Theatre Studies. It was a very old school education. All about the spoken word and directness and stillness and timing, and all those glorious things that work so well with classical theatre.

Whereas, when you work with someone like Chuck Mike you really get to let your most natural self shine. Chuck has a real need to go back to Africa culturally, a desire to tap into his own Nigerian heritage and really investigate African culture through theatre in a way that natives might not (Mike was born in the US, but has spent much of his adult life in the Nigeria). So it becomes all about finding the point of authenticity. Asking how African is this? How natural? Then merging the two, finding what’s beautiful in being well-spoken and elegant, and what is beautiful in being sensual and natural.

What is the social value of theatre companies like Collective Artistes, in your opinion?

T: There are so many ways of telling stories and we can only develop these if there is enough of a diversity of theatre companies, helping us to see and celebrate the differences even amongst ourselves. I think that’s important. There need to be more companies like Collective Artistes, a lot more!

Who typically comes to see a Collective Artistes production?

V: The majority are BAME and of those most are of West African origin, especially when we perform in London. But we perform all over.

On the opening night of Richard III in Scarborough Chuck asked the stage technician ‘How many Black people are we expecting in the audience tonight?’ and the technician said ‘You’re looking at them.’ And this audience was all White Europeans. But even outside of London we still do well because we bring a completely different culture and understanding of theatre.

It will be very interesting to see who comes to see this play. The themes are controversial. I hope they are unifying rather than discouraging to people!

T: (With Zhe) I think it’s about the story telling element. I don’t think it’s that obvious from the promotional material that it is a frightening experience!

Is it? A frightening experience?!

T: For us! The frightening bit is the authenticity that one has to commit to. You have to say things that might make you look unpleasant, uncouth, immoral . . . *laughs* but we do that in the hope that the truth helps you to see the character of the people that emerge. I think we come across as good people in the end, but you have to go to a dark place for that to happen.

What do you hope theatre goers will get out of the piece? What one thing would you love them to take away?

T: I hope people will go away feeling that the play is a celebration of life and of our diverse experiences and ultimately that we are all the same.

Whatever they think about what happened to Antonia and I, ultimately the play explores universal human experiences. There is the first kiss for everybody, the first time you do something terrible against yourself that comes back to haunt you, and the first moment of rising, of overcoming your fears and conquering your demons.

I call it an epic lullaby – it’s reassuring. You get a comprehensive view of what someone else’s life is like and how it is connected to yours.

V: Yes, absolutely. It’s about portraying a cohesive human experience. Giving British audiences (particularly White British audiences) the opportunity to be exposed to BAME British culture. When you start seeing real human experiences it creates that bridge between cultures, breaking down the idea of them and us. I think that is very important.

Who are your influences and inspirations in art?

T: Working with Chuck Mike, (Wole) Soyinka is always in the room in Chuck’s personal anecdotes (Mike studied under Soyinka in Nigeria). Getting to hear about what Soyinka might have said in a rehearsal room, or over a beer or to Chuck’s first offering of a production, Antonia and I love that. We really take that in. And even when I work with other companies it comes up – Soyinka as an African artist who has written plays which have such a longevity, of their time, and outside of their time, for all time. Soyinka as an African voice who has changed the landscape.

I also think Complicite are great. They bring an extraordinary uniqueness and creativity to the table. Antonia is wonderful too (I think she would say the same about me if she was in the room!) Coming from drama school I had never seen such extraordinary movements!

In general, I don’t play the whole admiration game too much. Very few people are worthy of admiring. *laughs* When I was younger, before I was a working artist, I would have given you a huge list of people I admired, but as an actor you learn very quickly to always be striving towards the thing that is not done, that has not been done and not allowing yourself to be held back by looking up to others. Especially not others who are not as brave as we are – getting up to tell their true story in the way we have in Zhe! *laughs*

Zhe is such an exciting adventure for me. It’s something we (Chuck, Antonia and I) have never seen in the theatre before. When someone has been in the business for as long as Chuck and they are saying ‘I don’t know what we are creating. I’ve never seen this in the theatre before!’ That’s exciting.

Lastly, how does it feel to be the first professional theatre group to perform in the Canada Water Cultural Space?

V: It’s great to be working with Southwark Council to be the first professional production in the new space. With any new space, there’s a certain amount of ‘breaking in’ that needs to be done, but Southwark and the Albany – who are managing the space – have worked really hard to make this new theatre a place to explore new professional and community arts. Southwark donated the theatre for our entire rehearsal period. It’s a real luxury to be able to rehearse in the same space you will perform. We’re really pleased to have Southwark’s support on this project and to be able to work with the Albany who bring years of experience to managing a mixed-use arts space, again.

Zhe kicks off its preview tour at the Canada Water Cultural Space tonight. For more details on the tour and how to get your tickets visit the Collective Artists website now.